Can you explain the Cassandra Claire plagiarism thing?? I haven’t read any of her books and am just curious. Thank you <3

codenamecesare:

alliwantisallofthis:

thecreativewritersproblems:

swingsetindecember:

Her Mortal Instruments series is a revamp of her Harry Potter fanfiction and entire excerpts, dialogue and plot were plagiarized from:

  • The Secret Country Trilogy, comprised of The Secret Country, The Hidden Land and The Whim of the Dragon from Pamela Dean
  • Epicyclical Elaborations in Sorcery from Patricia Wrede
  • Sorcery and Cecilia from Caroline Stevermer
  • Terry Pratchett books

All of which were published books. And I suppose you can say:

  • Harry Potter series by J.K. Rowling

because Mortal Instruments was an off-shoot from a Harry Potter fanfiction (so you can recognize a lot of characters personalities from Harry Potter). And let’s not forget either paraphrased or straight up copy paste of dialogues from TV shows such as:

  • Angel
  • Black Adder
  • Buffy the Vampire Slayer
  • and a couple of others

At the time in fanfiction, she ignored these allegations because it was fanfiction. But she is now published off this plagiarism and making money off others creativity. Other female fantasy writers.

Cassandra Clare (or Cassandra Claire, she changed her pen name) also harassed and bullied a number of people who brought up her plagiarism, including the authors that she plagiarized from. Her friend was a lawyer, so she basically bullied a lot of people.

As of right now, she is trying to get her litigation team to erase the internet history of her plagiarism and misbehavior.

Cassandra Clare and her loyal fans also ruined a lot of peoples lives through real world harassment. They tracked down IP addresses and threatened them for even talking about how Cassandra Clare plagiarized. Even tried to get a girl expelled from university as well as called people’s relatives and harassed them.

Cassandra Clare is not a nice person. Cassandra Clare stole creative works of others and has turned a profit from it and has not acknowledge it. Good chunks of text are from a lot of other stories. Those authors will probably never get a movie deal. But Cassandra Clare did because she is a literary bully as well as a real one.

Some people have sent me asks asking if I like Cassandra Clare’s work. The answer is no, and this is why.

https://fanlore.org/wiki/The_Cassandra_Claire_Plagiarism_Debacle

Losing journalfen was a major blow to fandom history, but the wayback machine has a lot of the deets saved. Even if you don’t particularly care about Claire one way or another, the original expose is some gripping reading.

It’s a measure of how much fuckery Claire was involved in that no one has even mentioned yet that her fans attacked a woman with cancer when the woman’s daughter dared to ask for a link to her fundraiser. I don’t recall how long it took for Claire to call off the dogs, but I remember watching when it was happening, and I know it took too long for her to speak up.

To be fair, a lot of the bad shit that happened around Claire was done by other people who were trying to curry favor with her. She was a BNF in the then-hugest fandom, Harry Potter, which was full of young people seeking attention and validation, and for a number of years, a nod or a link from Claire could drive serious traffic (by the standards of fandom at the time). That created a poisonous environment of people kissing her ass and attacking her “enemies” in an effort to get recognition from her.

Claire didn’t create that mess, but she did profit from it. Her fans organized a fundraiser to replace her laptops and electronics when Claire was allegedly robbed, and I’m sure her HP following was a factor in her book deal, given that her first books were based on her HP fic. Yet a lot of people following her weren’t there for her writing, but for her pull within HP, or to keep up with gossip, since she was involved in so many crazy episodes in HP fandom.

I don’t love Tumblr as a fandom platform, but LJ was no picnic either.

ltleflrt:

fandom-after:

ltleflrt:

mittensmorgul:

postmodernmulticoloredcloak:

chujo-hime:

ngl but I’m getting alittle annoyed with the way people keep pushing Dreamwidth.

Yes, Dreamwidth is run by fandom-friendly folks. But it is also firmly stuck in the bad old world of online fandom that was divided between the small number of talented content creators and the masses of mostly non-participating lurkers. Dreamwidth may be great for creators, but for the rest of us who participate in fandom through reblogs or retweets – the active curation of ours and others’ fandom experience through our Tumblrs or Twitter accounts – a return to a 2000s-style fandom experience means a return to a world where most of us are relegated to a passive audience.

I know the most of people pushing Dreamwidth so hard don’t mean it this way, but the way some of them are so, so blasé

about the lack of a resharing function is kinda starting to feel like some of them want us to sacrifice our participation in fandom in order to preserve their fandom experience.

I like tumblr because it feels like a conversation where everyone is invited to join if they want to. I definitely don’t care about writing meta on ao3, for instance – I don’t want meta to be the nonfiction equivalent of fanfic, where one person writes and readers read and give kudos and maybe comment. I want it to be a conversation. I think that’s why my attempts at writing fanfiction always fail while meta generally comes more easily – it does not feel like an individual activity where I share the finished product (and I can’t muster enough motivation to finish it). It feels like a prompt for a conversation, even if the meta ends up being like a mini essay. I like how things just bounce from blog to blog. It feels alive and it keeps me motivated to be active. I don’t feel like the Meta Writer who dispenses their Thoughts to others while others nod and clap and occasionally write a letter back to give me their feedback, you know? It feels like everyone’s sitting around the fire and sure, someone talks more and others tend to listen, but it still feels like we’re having a conversation together.

I’ve had a dreamwidth for years… I think longer than I’ve had a tumblr… but I don’t use it, and I don’t like it. But then again, I never liked LJ either, so that explains a lot of it.

The only reason I’m currently stuffing meta onto AO3 is because it’s a stable platform that can handle the load. It’s just a convenient lockbox to secure stuff I’ve written for the time being until I can find a better home for it and have the time to sort through it all. If this site flushes itself down the internet tubes, I just want to make sure I’ve salvaged everything I can before it all disappears forever.

So I might have a dreamwidth, but it’s more of a placeholder hoping something better and more long-term viable for me personally pops up. It’s just so… clunky compared to how fluid tumblr’s dash is.

And Pillowfort tries to be Tumblr Plus LiveJournal, which I guess is fine, but the inability to add to reblogs bugs me. Half of what I find entertaining about sharing on Tumblr is seeing that trail of commentary after someone’s random thought. And a comments section doesn’t have the same flavor of community creation.

To me comments are just for the OP. Reblog commentary is for the community.

I was in a tiny fandom on LJ back in the day, and for the public posts in the community forum, threaded comments were definitely for everyone. The difference is, it had a specific and obvious audience – the other fandom people in the comm. (This was a tiny fandom, so there was only one comm. But in a larger fandom, this would not be public to everyone in the whole fandom, only the people on that particular fandom space…).

Someone would post a question or a headcanon and everyone would discuss and it was 100% not about the OP – it was just all of us having a good conversation.

Not like commenting on private LJ blogs.

That kind of community discussion was a bit different though, because if you replied, your audience *included OP*. So you couldn’t add a super snarky commentary that’s addressed to YOUR user base and not to OP. Like people do on twitter a lot.

If you disagreed you had to debate in a way that included OP, and thus probably be… politer?

I think that style of community discussion tends to create more positive spaces, because no one feels like they are talking behind the last reblogger’s back and can therefore be snarky to them.

Like right now, I’m reblogging this from @ltleflrt and I feel a little uneasy in case they take offence at my disagreement. Tagging someone you’re not a mutual with can feel a bit scay because what if they think you’re being a dick? (hi @ltleflrt, sorry for picking on you – I’m not trying to be a dick, I’m wingstocarryon and I’ve followed you for ages and I like you, sorry!).

But the reblog function means I’m not talking to @litleflrt directly. I mean, I COULD tag you and have a conversation WITH you, directed at you, but the medium makes me feel like I’m reblogging to MY followers. It only changes if we’re mutuals and I know you’ll read what I’m writing. Then it becomes more friendly, less passive-aggressive. Even when I don’t WANT to be passive-aggressive, I just want to add my thoughts to the pile.

Like, I enjoy the spark that happens with the disagreement and the snark and all the takes piling on. But it’s a different feeling of what the community is. People with different interpretations are more likely to come into conflict, I think.

I’m not saying this to dispute anything above, though. Just thinking aloud.

I LOVE the posts that are made by reblogs. There’s a kind of creativity that comes from being able to add stuff and make it all public. I’d miss that a lot.

Idk. I didn’t realize you couldn’t add commentary to PF reblogs. That’s too bad.

It would be interesting to see what style ends up taking over in a system that allowed both.

I started using LJ in 2001 and never got into communities even tho I used the site regularly to blog for years. I never made friends on that site, maybe had 5 followers and 4 were irl friends. And communities were SO clique-ish. At least the ones I poked my head in were. It was never the right environment to pull me into socializing.

Tumblr, on the other hand, sucked me right in. People who followed me could share my posts and expose me to their groups, and suddenly my conversations spread to new people who weren’t part of my circle. This was before you could @ someone, and you just looked at your post notes to see who added commentary to their reblog (which is how I saw your reply @fandom-after I never got notified of you tagging me. Also hi! No offense taken because it’s just a conversion! lol) and as the op I could either reblog to talk back or just ignore whatever was added.

The op is still involved in reblog conversations with everyone who interacts with the post. And that fear of tagging someone you don’t usually interact with seems no different than being too shy to comment in a community. So I’m still not seeing the benefit of communities driven by comment conversations in LJ/Dreamwidth/Pillowfort vs reblog conversations on Tumblr.

But there’s a reason Pillowfort exists. The smaller community vibe was missed by old LJ users enough to try and hybridize the two social media styles. I’m just not one of those people 🙂

on fanfic & emotional continuity

iwilltrytobereasonable:

earlgreytea68:

bigblueboxat221b:

notjustamumj:

earlgreytea68:

glitterandrocketfuel:

earlgreytea68:

meanderings0ul:

earlgreytea68:

nianeyna:

earlgreytea68:

fozmeadows:

Writing and reading fanfic is a masterclass in characterisation. 

Consider: in order to successfully write two different “versions” of the same character – let alone ten, or fifty, or a hundred – you have to make an informed judgement about their core personality traits, distinguishing between the results of nature and nurture, and decide how best to replicate those conditions in a new narrative context. The character you produce has to be recognisably congruent with the canonical version, yet distinct enough to fit within a different – perhaps wildly so – story. And you physically can’t accomplish this if the character in question is poorly understood, or viewed as a stereotype, or one-dimensional. Yes, you can still produce the fic, but chances are, if your interest in or knowledge of the character(s) is that shallow, you’re not going to bother in the first place. 

Because ficwriters care about nuance, and they especially care about continuity – not just literal continuity, in the sense of corroborating established facts, but the far more important (and yet more frequently neglected) emotional continuity. Too often in film and TV canons in particular, emotional continuity is mistakenly viewed as a synonym for static characterisation, and therefore held anathema: if the character(s) don’t change, then where’s the story? But emotional continuity isn’t anti-change; it’s pro-context. It means showing how the character gets from Point A to Point B as an actual journey, not just dumping them in a new location and yelling Because Reasons! while moving on to the next development. Emotional continuity requires a close reading, not just of the letter of the canon, but its spirit – the beats between the dialogue; the implications never overtly stated, but which must logically occur off-screen. As such, emotional continuity is often the first casualty of canonical forward momentum: when each new TV season demands the creation of a new challenge for the protagonists, regardless of where and how we left them last, then dealing with the consequences of what’s already happened is automatically put on the backburner.

Fanfic does not do this. 

Fanfic embraces the gaps in the narrative, the gracenotes in characterisation that the original story glosses, forgets or simply doesn’t find time for. That’s not all it does, of course, but in the context of learning how to write characters, it’s vital, because it teaches ficwriters – and fic readers – the difference between rich and cardboard characters. A rich character is one whose original incarnation is detailed enough that, in order to put them in fanfic, the writer has to consider which elements of their personality are integral to their existence, which clash irreparably with the new setting, and which can be modified to fit, to say nothing of how this adapted version works with other similarly adapted characters. A cardboard character, by contrast, boasts so few original or distinct attributes that the ficwriter has to invent them almost out of whole cloth. Note, please, that attributes are not necessarily synonymous with details in this context: we might know a character’s favourite song and their number of siblings, but if this information gives us no actual insight into them as a person, then it’s only window-dressing. By the same token, we might know very few concrete facts about a character, but still have an incredibly well-developed sense of their personhood on the basis of their actions

The fact that ficwriters en masse – or even the same ficwriter in different AUs – can produce multiple contradictory yet still fundamentally believable incarnations of the same person is a testament to their understanding of characterisation, emotional continuity and narrative. 

So I was reading this rumination on fanfic and I was thinking about something @involuntaryorange once talked to me about, about fanfic being its own genre, and something about this way of thinking really rocked my world? Because for a long time I have thought like a lawyer, and I have defined fanfiction as “fiction using characters that originated elsewhere,” or something like that. And now I feel like…fanfiction has nothing to do with using other people’s characters, it’s just a character-driven *genre* that is so character-driven that it can be more effective to use other people’s characters because then we can really get the impact of the storyteller’s message but I feel like it could also be not using other people’s characters, just a more character-driven story. Like, I feel like my original stuff–the novellas I have up on AO3, the draft I just finished–are probably really fanfiction, even though they’re original, because they’re hitting fanfic beats. And my frustration with getting original stuff published has been, all along, that I’m calling it a genre it really isn’t. 

And this is why many people who discover fic stop reading other stuff. Once you find the genre you prefer, you tend to read a lot in that genre. Some people love mysteries, some people love high-fantasy. Saying you love “fic” really means you love this character-driven genre. 

So when I hear people be dismissive of fic I used to think, Are they just not reading the good fic? Maybe I need to put the good fic in front of them? But I think it turns out that fanfiction is a genre that is so entirely character-focused that it actually feels weird and different, because most of our fiction is not that character-focused. 

It turns out, when I think about it, I am simply a character-based consumer of pop culture. I will read and watch almost anything but the stuff that’s going to stick with me is because I fall for a particular character. This is why once a show falters and disagrees with my view of the character, I can’t just, like, push past it, because the show *was* the character for me. 

Right now my big thing is the Juno Steel stories, and I know that they’re doing all this genre stuff and they have mysteries and there’s sci-fi and meanwhile I’m just like, “Okay, whatever, I don’t care about that, JUNO STEEL IS THE BEST AND I WANT TO JUST ROLL AROUND IN HIS SARCASTIC, HILARIOUS, EMOTIONALLY PINING HEAD.” That is the fanfiction-genre fan in me coming out. Someone looking for sci-fi might not care about that, but I’m the type of consumer (and I think most fic-people are) who will spend a week focusing on what one throwaway line might reveal about a character’s state of mind. That’s why so many fics *focus* on those one throwaway lines. That’s what we’re thinking about. 

And this is what makes coffee shop AUs so amazing. Like, you take some characters and you stick them in a coffee shop. That’s it. And yet I love every single one of them. Because the focus is entirely on the characters. There is no plot. The plot is they get coffee every day and fall in love. That’s the entire plot. And that’s the perfect fanfic plot. Fanfic plots are almost always like that. Almost always references to other things that clue you in to where the story is going. Think of “friends to lovers” or “enemies to lovers” or “fake relationship,” and you’re like, “Yes. I love those. Give me those,” and you know it’s going to be the same plot, but that’s okay, you’re not reading for the plot. It’s like that Tumblr post that goes around that’s like, “Me starting a fake relationship fic: Ooooh, do you think they’ll fall in love for real????” But you’re not reading for the suspense. Fic frees you up from having to spend effort thinking about the plot. Fic gives your brain space to focus entirely on the characters. And, especially in an age of plot-twist-heavy pop culture, that almost feels like a luxury. “Come in. Spend a little time in this character’s head. SPEND HOURS OF YOUR LIFE READING SO MANY STORIES ABOUT THIS CHARACTER’S HEAD. Until you know them like a friend. Until you know them so well that you miss them when you’re not hanging out with them.” 

When that is your story, when the characters become like your friends, it makes sense that you’re freed from plot. It’s like how many people don’t really have a “plot” to hanging out with their friends. There’s this huge obsession with plot, but lives don’t have plots. Lives just happen. We try to shape them into plots later, but that’s just this organizational fiction we’re imposing. Plot doesn’t have to be the raison d’etre of all story-telling, and fic reminds us of that. 

Idk, this was a lot of random rambling but I’ve been thinking about it a lot lately. 

“fanfiction has nothing to do with using other people’s characters, it’s just a character-driven *genre* that is so character-driven that it can be more effective to use other people’s characters”

yes!!!! I feel like I knew this on some level but I’ve never explicitly thought about it that way. this feels right, yep. Mainstream fiction often seems very dry to me and I think this is why – it tends to skip right over stuff that would be a huge plot arc in a fanfic, if not an entire fanfic in itself. And I’m like, “hey, wait, go back to that. Why are you skipping that? Where’s the story?” But now I think maybe people who don’t like fanfiction are going like, “why is there an entire fanfic about something that could have happened offscreen? Is anything interesting ever going to happen here? Where’s the story?”

Yes! Exactly! This!!!

This crystallized for me when I taught my first class of fanfiction to non-fic-readers and they just kept being like, “But nothing happens. What’s the plot?” and I was so confused, like, “What are you talking about? They fall in love. That’s the plot.” But we were, I think, talking past each other. They kept waiting for some big moment to happen, but for me the point was that the little moments were the big moments. 

This is such an awesome conversation, but I think there’s
even another layer here that makes ‘fic’ its own genre. And it is the plot.

Everyone who’s experienced in reading fic has their little ‘trope
plots’ we are willing to read or even prefer in order to spend time with our
favorite characters. We know how it’s gonna end and we genuinely don’t care,
because the character is the whole point of why we’re reading. And that is
unique. That’s just not how mainstream media publication does things.

But there are also hundreds of thousands of fics people
might call ‘plot driven’ and they have wonderful, intricate plots that thrill
their readers.

But they’re not at all ‘plot driven’ in the same way as
other mainstream genres.

The thing about ‘plot’ in fic is that it tends to ebb and
flow naturally. There’s not the same high speed, race to the finish you’d get
from a good action movie. There’s no stop and start of side plots you get in TV
genre shows. The best fic plot slides from big event to restful evening to
frantic activity to shared meals and squabbles and back, and it gives equal time and attention and detail to each of these
things
.

Like @earlgreytea68 said, “There’s this huge obsession with
plot, but lives don’t have plots. Lives just happen. We try to shape them into
plots later, but that’s just this organizational fiction we’re imposing. Plot
doesn’t have to be the raison d’etre of all story-telling, and fic reminds us
of that.”

Fic plot moves at a pace similar to the life of whatever
character it’s about. Not the other way around. There’s a fundamental difference in prioritization in fic.

I think this only adds to the case of ‘fic’ as its own,
distinctive genre. Stylistic choices of writing that would never work in
traditional, mainstream fiction novels work for novel-length fic. Fic
adventures spend as much time fleshing out the little moments between romances
and friendships as they do on that plot twist. The sleepy campground
conversations are as important to the plot as the kidnapped princess, because that’s
how the characters are going to grow together by the end of the story. It’s not
a grace note, it’s not a side episode or an addition or a mention – it’s
integral and equal.

That’s just accepted as fact by fic writers and readers. It’s
expected without any particular mention. And it gives a very unique flavor and
pace to fic that makes a lot of mainstream stories feel like stale, off-brand
wonderbread. They are missing something regular fic readers take for granted
(and it isn’t just the representational differences, because we all know that’s
a whole different conversation). There’s a fundamental difference in how ‘fic’
is written, detailed, and paced that is built on its foundations as a ‘character
driven’ genre.  

And it isn’t only action/adventure/mystery plots that have
this difference in fic. Those ‘everybody’s human in today’s world’ AUs, those ‘friends
to lovers’ slow burn stories have it too. They have a plot, but it’s the life
the grocery shopping, the dumb fights and sudden inescapable emotional blows, those
moments of joy with that person you click with, managing work and family and
seasons – that’s the whole plot on its own.

And that’s almost impossible to explain to someone who hasn’t
really experienced fic as a genre, who’s used to traditional person A and person
B work together/overcome differences/bond to accomplish X. In fic accomplishing
X might be the beginning or the middle, not the end result of the story, and A
& B continue to exist separate from X entirely. X is only relevant because
of how it relates to A & B, not the other way around.

Fic is absolutely its own genre and it has a lot to do with plot. I’ve been calling this ‘organic
plot’ in my head for months, because I knew something felt different about
writing this way, how long fic plot ebbs and grows seemingly on its own
sometimes. ‘Dual plot’ could be another option, maybe, though the character plot and
life experience plots aren’t really separate. Inverted plot? Hm. I’m sure a good term will develop
over time.

OH MY GOODNESS I LOVE THIS. 

I was always fond of saying, about my own fics, that my plots show up about two-thirds of the way through, because it takes me that long to figure out where I’m going, and then I would lol about it, because, ha, wouldn’t it be great if I organized it better. 

And now I read this and I’m like, WAIT. YES. THAT’S WHAT’S HAPPENING. IT’S BEEN HAPPENING ALL ALONG. I NEVER REALIZED IT. The idea that the primary importance is the throughline of the characters, and that’s what we’re following, and the plot is what’s dangling off the side of their story, that is SO IMPORTANT. You’re right, that usually we’re told as writers to construct stories from the plot outward. “Here are the beats your plot needs to hit, here’s the rising action to the climax to the falling action, now make sure your Character A makes this realization by Point X in order to get your plot into shape for Point Y to click in.” It’s *such* a plot-centric way to write and I am *terrible* at it. And I’ve always said, whenever I sit down to “outline” a story, like, How do you this? How do you know where the characters are going until they tell you where they’re going???

But it’s not that I’m “bad” at this, which is what I’ve always thought, it’s just that I’m coming at it from the opposite angle. I can’t plan the plot before the characters because I’m sticking close to the characters, and the traditional “plot” is secondary to whatever’s going to happen to them. And that’s not a wrong way of writing, it’s just a different way of writing. And it’s wrong of me to be thinking that my stories don’t get a “point” until they’re almost over. THEY’VE HAD THE POINT ALL ALONG. What happens when they’re almost over is that the characters come to where they’ve been going, and then the traditional “plot” is what helps shape the ending. The traditional “plot” becomes, to me, like that epilogue scene after the biggest explosion in an action movie, where you’re told the characters are going to be okay. I spend the entire movie telling you the characters are going to be okay, and then my epilogue scene is tacked on “oh, p.s., also they saved the day.” 

There is so much here that I want to say I don’t even know where to begin. @earlgreytea68 you’re not alone. Hit me up. I’ve studied plot and structure forever. Fics are pure, uncut, internal-motivation-drives-everything storytelling and they are so very different from the monomyth that drives most commercial fiction these days that they almost have to exist in a liminal space like fan fiction. I could go on…

LET’S BE FRIENDS. 

Hahaha, this is my week to just want to be Tumblr friends with everyone, all the FOB people, all the fluff people, all the fandom anthropology people, LET’S ALL BE FRIENDS. 

❤ ❤ ❤

@earlgreytea68 and @glitterandrocketfuel and OP and everyone else who contributed – this is beautiful, and I’m saving it to read and consider again later. probably with a glass of wine or something. ❤

Smart idea. 😉

Somebody make Six Characters in Search of an Author the new AU style

rainbowdazzle:

violent-darts:

ranma-official:

delcat177:

finnglas:

dangerwaffle:

castiel-knight-of-hell:

masquerading-as-a-genius:

sage-of-rocknroll-oromis:

the-deaf-mermaid:

giants0rbiting:

I LITERALLY THINK THIS EVERY TIME THE SONG COMES ON

What song is this talking about?

‘Baby It’s Cold Outside’

Otherwise known as the original ‘Blurred Lines’

HEY FRIENDS HISTORICAL REMINDER: ‘WHAT’S IN THIS DRINK’ ISN’T TALKING ABOUT DRUGS, HE IS NOT TRYING TO ROOFIE HER

THE SONG IS TALKING ABOUT ALCOHOL

but still a pushy song

historical reminder that the reason pina coladas and pink squirrels are known as “girly drinks” is because they mask the taste of alcohol and men were know to give women these drinks without informing them that they were alcoholic. It takes a couple of drinks to realize you’ve been consuming alcohol and by then you’re more susceptible to suggestion, making it easier for him to convince you to stick around and have a third drink. When this song was written in 1944 most women didn’t drink regularly, meaning they had a low tolerance and it would only take 2-3 drinks to get her drunk enough that she wouldn’t be able to put up much of a fight. This was the 1940s version of being roofied

No no no it was not.

“Hey what’s in this drink” was a stock joke at the time, and the punchline was invariably that there’s actually pretty much nothing in the drink, not even a significant amount of alcohol

See, this woman is staying late, unchaperoned, at a dude’s house. In the 1940’s, that’s the kind of thing Good Girls aren’t supposed to do – and she wants people to think she’s a good girl. The woman in the song says outright, multiple times, that what other people will think of her staying is what she’s really concerned about: “the neighbors might think,” “my maiden aunt’s mind is vicious,” “there’s bound to be talk tomorrow.“ But she’s having a really good time, and she wants to stay, and so she is excusing her uncharacteristically bold behavior (either to the guy or to herself) by blaming it on the drink – unaware that the drink is actually really weak, maybe not even alcoholic at all. That’s the joke. That is the standard joke that’s going on when a woman in media from the early-to-mid 20th century says “hey, what’s in this drink?“ It is not a joke about how she’s drunk and about to be raped. It’s a joke about how she’s perfectly sober and about to have awesome consensual sex and use the drink for plausible deniability because she’s living in a society where women aren’t supposed to have sexual agency.

Basically, the song only makes sense in the context of a society in which women are expected to reject men’s advances whether they actually want to or not, and therefore it’s normal and expected for a lady’s gentleman companion to pressure her despite her protests, because he knows she would have to say that whether or not she meant it, and if she really wants to stay she won’t be able to justify doing so unless he offers her an excuse other than “I’m staying because I want to.” (That’s the main theme of the man’s lines in the song, suggesting excuses she can use when people ask later why she spent the night at his house: it was so cold out, there were no cabs available, he simply insisted because he was concerned about my safety in such awful weather, it was perfectly innocent and definitely not about sex at all!) In this particular case, he’s pretty clearly right, because unlike in Blurred Lines, the woman actually has a voice, and she’s using it to give all the culturally-understood signals that she actually does want to stay but can’t say so. She states explicitly that she’s resisting because she’s supposedto, not because she wants to: “I ought to say no no no…" She states explicitly that she’s just putting up a token resistance so she’ll be able to claim later that she did what’s expected of a decent woman in this situation: “at least I’m gonna say that I tried.” And at the end of the song they’re singing together, in harmony, because they’re both on the same page and they have been all along.

So it’s not actually a song about rape – in fact it’s a song about a woman finding a way to exercise sexual agency in a patriarchal society designed to stop her from doing so. But it’s also, at the same time, one of the best illustrations of rape culture that pop culture has ever produced. It’s a song about a society where women aren’t allowed to say yes…which happens to mean it’s also a society where women don’t have a clear and unambiguous way to say no.

Reblogging for that last bit because this is what I rant about to Kellie every time this discourse happens on my blog but I’m too lazy to type it out. SO thank you to @dangerwaffle for not being as lazy as me. This song has a cultural context, and a historical context, and it’s worth talking about how fucked up that context is, but you have to get WHICH context it is right first.

I see the Annual Discourse has been reblogged, it is Christmas in fact an deed

broke: tracking christmas by calendar date

joke: tracking christmas by christmas song google searches

woke: tracking christmas by baby it’s cold outside discourse

Oh thank gods I finally found a version where that discourse actually involves someone talking about the WHOLE context and how the song is fine within its own context but also that that context is fucked up and part of what gives us OUR fucked up context. 

A+ @dangerwaffle, Appreciate. 

Context matters. Getting mad without understanding context accomplishes nothing. The person above did a better job explaining any uncomfortable issues with the song way better than anyone looking at it through a modern lense and just labeling it “rapey” without a second thought.

freedom-of-fanfic:

congregamus:

curlicuecal:

jumpingjacktrash:

kmclaude:

queerpyracy:

queerpyracy:

baffling how much of this site is just conservative protestantism with a gay hat

you know what i’m in just enough of a bad mood that i’m ready to nail my grievances to the church door so let’s fucking go

  • black and white morality wherein anyone who doesn’t believe/think/live exactly as I do is a dirty sinner Problematic and probably a predatory monster
  • everyone is a sinner Problematic but true believers people who activist the right way according to my worldview are still better than everyone else, and I will act in accordance to this belief in my own superiority to let everyone else know I’m better than them because I found Jesus am the most woke
  • casual and fucking omnipresent equations of womanhood with softness/goodness/purity/nurturing to remind every woman who isn’t/doesn’t want to be any of those things that they’re doing it wrong
  • aggressive desexualization (particularly of women’s sexuality, to the point where it may as well not exist at all) accompanied by pastels [not a criticism directed ace ppl having a right to sex-free content and spaces but specifically targeted at a wider problem resulting from the previous point]
  • YOU’RE VALID AND JESUS LOVES YOU and neither of these platitudes achieves a goddamn thing
  • historical context is for people who care about nuance and we don’t have time for either (see: black and white morality)
  • lots of slogans and quotes and nice little soundbites to memorize but does anybody actually study the source material with a critical eye to make their own informed analysis
  • the answer is no
  • I’ve been to bible study groups don’t @ me I know what the fuck I’m talking about
  • Good Christians™ Nice Gays™

    don’t fraternize with/let themselves be influenced by non-Christians those terrible queers

  • all the media one consumes must be ideologically pure or it will surely harm the children
  • it is Our Sacred Duty to protect the children from Everything, thus ensuring their innocence/purity/etc until such time as they are idk probably 25 years old
  • literally just “think of the children” moral panic y’all can fuckin miss me with that
  • people who don’t conform to the dominant thinking WILL be excommunicated/driven from the social group, and any wrong treatment they suffer will be seen as a justified consequence of their wrong thinking
  • I Saw Goody Proctor With The Devil And She Had A Bad Steven Universe Headcanon

Thank you for breaking it down like that because so many of us have been saying it but to see a play by play breakdown comparison is just…Thank you.

  • sipping tea and judging people as a group bonding activity

oh, man, speaking as a queer Christian who gets regular tumblr flashbacks to my childhood in the Bible Belt, YES

-belief that small snippets of text can be analyzed out context to understand the whole work/ judge the whole person
-Desire for moral choices to be easy/ black-and-white leads to belief that it is possible to find a one-size-fits all answer to every situation
-Literal, rather than literary analysis, with weird fixation on etymological roots that have nothing to do with source material
-Belief that there is “one true interpretation” that is self-evident and will be understood by everyone encountering the same material regardless of background
-Overwhelming, internalized sense of culpability for other people’s actions/integrity/souls
-Overwhelming, internalized sense of personal guilt
-Pressure to evangelize aggressively
-Tendency to value broad ideals before individual needs
-Hostility towards coexistence/tolerance/neutrality
-Hostility towards lack of consensus in viewpoint
-Knowledge as contamination
-Guilt/contamination by proximity
-Fixation on the sexual as uniquely dirty/sinful
-Belief in “thought crimes”
-Argumentation via appeal to higher authority/feelings of revulsion rather than internal, verbalizeable logic
-“conversations” that are actually stealth soapboxes because one side isn’t actually interested in listening
-“polite requests” that are actually commands because “no” is not considered an acceptable answer
-in-group language
-virtue-signaling and hostility towards the outgroup
-gatekeeping
-communities strongly built around the idea of being the world’s underdog
-appropriation of other people’s persecution/victimization
-treating the concept of oppression like a trophy
-glorification/fetishization of victimhood

It got better.

Bringing this back.

Concerning Juliet’s age

thebibliosphere:

rillensora:

thebibliosphere:

lucytheaxton:

thebibliosphere:

catintheoffice:

penfairy:

I find a big stumbling block that comes with teaching Romeo and Juliet is explaining Juliet’s age. Juliet is 13 – more precisely, she’s just on the cusp of turning 14. Though it’s not stated explicitly, Romeo is implied to be a teenager just a few years older than her – perhaps 15 or 16. Most people dismiss Juliet’s age by saying “that was normal back then” or “that’s just how it was.” This is fundamentally untrue, and I will explain why.

In Elizabethan England, girls could legally marry at 12 (boys at 14) but only with their father’s permission. However, it was normal for girls to marry after 18 (more commonly in early to mid twenties) and for boys to marry after 21 (more commonly in mid to late twenties). But at 14, a girl could legally marry without papa’s consent. Of course, in doing so she ran the risk of being disowned and left destitute, which is why it was so critical for a young man to obtain the father’s goodwill and permission first. Therein lies the reason why we are repeatedly told that Juliet is about to turn 14 in under 2 weeks. This was a critical turning point in her life.

In modern terms, this would be the equivalent of the law in many countries which states children can marry at 16 with their parents’ permission, or at 18 to whomever they choose – but we see it as pretty weird if someone marries at 16. They’re still a kid, we think to ourselves – why would their parents agree to this?

This is exactly the attitude we should take when we look at Romeo and Juliet’s clandestine marriage. Today it would be like two 16 year olds marrying in secret. This is NOT normal and would NOT have been received without a raised eyebrow from the audience. Modern audiences AND Elizabethan audiences both look at this and think THEY. ARE. KIDS.

Critically, it is also not normal for fathers to force daughters into marriage at this time. Lord Capulet initially makes a point of telling Juliet’s suitor Paris that “my will to her consent is but a part.” He tells Paris he wants to wait a few years before he lets Juliet marry, and informs him to woo her in the meantime. Obtaining the lady’s consent was of CRITICAL importance. It’s why so many of Shakespeare’s plays have such dazzling, well-matched lovers in them, and why men who try to force daughters to marry against their will seldom prosper. You had to let the lady make her own choice. Why?

Put simply, for her health. It was considered a scientific fact that a woman’s health was largely, if not solely, dependant on her womb. Once she reached menarche in her teenage years, it was important to see her fitted with a compatible sexual partner. (For aristocratic girls, who were healthier and enjoyed better diets, menarche generally occurred in the early teens rather than the later teens, as was more normal at the time). The womb was thought to need heat, pleasure, and conception if the woman was to flourish. Catholics might consider virginity a fit state for women, but the reformed English church thought it was borderline unhealthy – sex and marriage was sometimes even prescribed as a medical treatment. A neglected wife or widow could become sick from lack of (pleasurable) sex. Marrying an unfit sexual partner or an older man threatened to put a girl’s health at risk. An unsatisfied woman, made ill by her womb as a result – was a threat to the family unit and the stability of society as a whole. A satisfying sex life with a good husband meant a womb that had the heat it needed to thrive, and by extension a happy and healthy woman.

In Shakespeare’s plays, sexual compatibility between lovers manifests on the stage in wordplay. In Much Ado About Nothing, sparks fly as Benedick and Beatrice quarrel and banter, in comparison to the silence that pervades the relationship between Hero and Claudio, which sours very quickly. Compare to R+J – Lord Capulet tells Paris to woo Juliet, but the two do not communicate. But when Romeo and Juliet meet, their first speech takes the form of a sonnet. They might be young and foolish, but they are in love. Their speech betrays it.

Juliet, on the cusp of 14, would have been recognised as a girl who had reached a legal and biological turning point. Her sexual awakening was upon her, though she cares very little about marriage until she meets the man she loves. They talk, and he wins her wholehearted, unambiguous and enthusiastic consent – all excellent grounds for a relationship, if only she weren’t so young.

When Tybalt dies and Romeo is banished, Lord Capulet undergoes a monstrous change from doting father to tyrannical patriarch. Juilet’s consent has to take a back seat to the issue of securing the Capulet house. He needs to win back the prince’s favour and stabilise his family after the murder of his nephew. Juliet’s marriage to Paris is the best way to make that happen. Fathers didn’t ordinarily throw their daughters around the room to make them marry. Among the nobility, it was sometimes a sad fact that girls were simply expected to agree with their fathers’ choices. They might be coerced with threats of being disowned. But for the VAST majority of people in England – basically everyone non-aristocratic – the idea of forcing a daughter that young to marry would have been received with disgust. And even among the nobility it was only used as a last resort, when the welfare of the family was at stake. Note that aristocratic boys were often in the same position, and would also be coerced into advantageous marriages for the good of the family.

tl;dr:

Q. Was it normal for girls to marry at 13?

A. Hell no!

Q. Was it legal for girls to marry at 13?

A. Not without dad’s consent – Friar Lawrence performs this dodgy ceremony only because he believes it might bring peace between the houses.

Q. Was it normal for fathers to force girls into marriage?

A. Not at this time in England. In noble families, daughters were expected to conform to their parents wishes, but a girl’s consent was encouraged, and the importance of compatibility was recognised.

Q. How should we explain Juliet’s age in modern terms?

A. A modern Juliet would be a 17 year old girl who’s close to turning 18. We all agree that girls should marry whomever they love, but not at 17, right? We’d say she’s still a kid and needs to wait a bit before rushing into this marriage. We acknowledge that she’d be experiencing her sexual awakening, but marrying at this age is odd – she’s still a child and legally neither her nor Romeo should be marrying without parental permission.

Q. Would Elizabethans have seen Juliet as a child?

A. YES. The force of this tragedy comes from the youth of the lovers. The Montagues and Capulets have created such a hateful, violent and dangerous world for their kids to grow up in that the pangs of teenage passion are enough to destroy the future of their houses. Something as simple as two kids falling in love is enough to lead to tragedy. That is the crux of the story and it should not be glossed over – Shakespeare made Juliet 13 going on 14 for a reason. 

Romeo and Juliet is the Elizabethan equivalent of  ‘won’t someone please think of the children’  it’s a romantic tragedy  not a romance  romantic in that it’s a love story  but not a romance in the sense that it is supposed to be emulated  and is likely a social commentary of something happening at the time  whether it was ongoing religious feuds  which did tear families apart  uprisings across the country  or just general malaise with how the world was going in the 1590s  it’s also worth noting that R+J was based heavily on a poem writen  some 30ish years prior  by Arthur Brooke  known as The Tragical History of Romeus and Juliet  which in turn was based on the work of Matteo Bandello  who supposedly based most of his work on real life events  making his association to Lucrezia Gonzaga  an Italian noblewoman  who was married off at the age of 14  likely to solidify some sort of alliance during turbulent times all the more poignant  Shakespeare was and never has been the reserve of the intellectual and elite  that we are taught his work without historical context  robs us of the true value of his work social commentary  and this social commentary would like to have a few words with your false ideas of ‘historical accuracy’ (via @thebibliosphere)

I saw this in my emails and couldn’t see why I’d been tagged in it (all the while nodding vehemently along) and then I saw my tags and ah. Yep. Still forever mad at how badly Shakespeare is taught in most schools.

Wait but then why does Juliet’s mother talk about being already married younger than Juliet currently is?

Likely because her match to Juliet’s father was an arranged match to solidify family names and houses in order to avoid conflicts or to establish wealth. (It also serves to denote the tragic undercurrent of the play ie love is secondary to wealth and power.)

It wasn’t so uncommon for children of royalty or nobility to be betrothed from birth, or even symbolically married, in order to make alliances. But that doesn’t mean they were engaging in the kind of adult relationship we envision when we think of marriage today.

Which isn’t to say some people didn’t buck the norm and do horrible things
Margaret Beaufort is a prime example of this, which the Tudors would likely be aware of. Her first marriage contract actually happened when she was one year old. It was later dissolved and she was remarried at the age of 12, and her second husband, Edmund Tudor, did in fact get her pregnant before dying himself. She was 13 years old when she gave birth, and it caused major health issues for her and nearly killed her. When she survived it was considered miraculous. Which should tell you just how not normal this kind of thing was thought of even back then.

I agree with absolutely everything in this thread of discussion. Even so, my long-standing fascination with both Shakespeare and late medieval / early renaissance history makes it impossible for me to to reblog without throwing in my extra few cents:

I. Margaret Beaufort

In my mind, there are few cases that better demonstrate the tensions between medieval norms and medieval realities than that of Margaret Beaufort. Like many other women of her time, she had only one child surviving to adulthood:
Henry Tudor (later Henry VII and the founder of the Tudor dynasty). In that, Margaret wasn’t so remarkable: infant mortality made this a common enough outcome, though undoubtedly a tragic one.

Where Margaret’s case was exceptional is that Henry was also her only known pregnancy, without so much as a stillbirth, infant death, or even another pregnancy ever being mentioned in connection to her. In her own time, it was commonly assumed that her experience of childbirth at a very young age was what accounted for her barrenness, and even to us today, it doesn’t seem implausible to assume some kind of physical trauma that prevented later pregnancies from taking place, given all the medical knowledge we’ve accumulated about the risks of childbirth at either extreme of age.

But there was more to this. The vast Beaufort estate that came with Margaret’s young hand
were so valuable that, to 15th/16th century English minds, it perfectly explained Edmund Tudor’s motives for having been so reckless with the health of his wife: having an heir of his own would ensure that her lands would stay with him, in the name of any children they might have together, whereas the lands would pass to someone else if she should die before having a child. Of course, most men in that situation would have waited anyway, as a child whose mother died in childbirth was much less likely to survive anyway, so contemporaries portrayed Edmund Tudor’s actions as short-sighted and foolhardy at best, amoral and cruel and worst. But Fate must have a sense of irony, because Edmund died before his son was even born,

while

Margaret lived, and as aristocratic women tended to do in those circumstances, she was remarried to Henry Stafford, 1st Duke of Buckingham.

Since Margaret was Stafford’s first (and only) wife, he would have depended on her to give him any heirs at all, to whom he could pass on the lands he already had, let alone any of Margaret’s own (and it would be logical to assume that the Beaufort inheritance would have been no less tempting to Stafford than it was to Tudor). He must have at least hoped for children from her, and at the time, there wasn’t any reason to expect she was totally barren either: there was the traumatic birth to consider, but she was more physically mature when she remarried, and there was room to hope that widowhood had given her time to recover. And yet, despite all this, it seems few people (if any) were surprised that Margaret did not bear any more children. It didn’t seem to doom her relationship with her second husband either: on the contrary, Margaret enjoyed a happy relationship with Stafford for well over a decade until his death, so if there was any bitterness on his part over his lack of heirs, he must have managed it well. Even in the contemporary sources (who don’t tend to be charitable towards female figures), any blame for her barrenness is laid squarely at the feet of the various men who were her guardians in her early life, who clearly abused their authority over her for their own benefit, rather than to safeguard Margaret’s well-being as guardians are supposed to do (one of them being Edmund Tudor himself… he wasn’t supposed to even be in the running for her wardship, but Henry VI actually outright broke a promise he had made to Margaret’s father to let Margaret’s mother be her guardian in the event of his death).

This indicates to me even more strongly that late-medieval / Tudor people would have not only been sympathetic towards what Margaret and women like her had suffered, but also understood that neglectful attitudes towards the health and happiness of dependents have consequences. Shakespeare’s own words make this clear, at the beginning of the play:

Paris: Younger than she are happy mothers made.
Capulet: And too soon marr’d are those so early made.

Tudor audiences would have understood these lines as the words of a benevolent father protecting his daughter from the advances of an overeager young suitor, invoking what seems to have been a Tudor-era trope that early marriages do not make for happy endings… not for the woman,
not for her family or husband, and certainly not for the children she
might otherwise have borne. Because Capulet came off as the “good father” in the beginning of the play, it makes it all the more shocking when his attitude changes and he becomes the all-too-familiar figure of the cold, uncaring patriarch who regards his children only as pawns*.
I imagine the juxtaposition would have invited Tudor audiences to feel
Juliet’s sense of betrayal as if it were happening to them.

* Jane Grey, the famed “nine days’ queen” was also rumored to be such a victim of her parents’ ambition: they also saw fit to force her into a marriage that she seriously objected to, and historical records point a fairly consistent picture of their callous disregard towards her wishes and genuine happiness.

II. Consent in Medieval Marriages

Twelve and fourteen are actually also important numbers in their own right, and Shakespeare’s choice to place Juliet between those two ages has an important symbolic meaning. Late medieval Catholic doctrine defined marriage as a sacrament, like the Eucharist (Communion), or Holy Orders. Many of the sacraments require those who receive them to understand what they’re getting into for the sacrament to have the desired effect. To guarantee understanding (at least from a theological perspective), you would have to be above “the age of reason”, the age at which you were considered to be able to think for yourself. Conservative definitions of the “age of reason” sometimes defined it as the age of fifteen or fourteen (or older), but was later fixed at twelve. Since marriage was one of these sacraments, a marriage where both spouses had not fully and knowingly given their consent was no marriage at all.* Therefore, twelve was considered the absolute lower age limit at which a person could marry without compromising the very spiritual foundation of the marriage itself, while fourteen was considered a safer age at which to assume the person had full control of their reasoning capacities.

The other side of the “consent” coin when it came to marriage was that consent wasn’t just a necessary condition to finalize a marriage, it was also sufficient condition. If a man and a woman had given their knowing consent to marry one another, and if they had intentionally verbalized this promise to one another and consummated their marriage, then no earthly power could invalidate this pact for any reason (outside of a few very specific ones, like incest) without risking damnation. Witnesses were convenient as a way to prove that the marriage had taken place, if a family member or some segment of society disapproved of the match, but they weren’t needed in order to make the marriage spiritually valid.
Basically, the Catholic Church at this stage somehow ended up putting
the idea of consent at the very heart of the idea of what made a marriage valid or not, and this had consequences not only because of the threat of hellfire, but also because Church law was secular
law when it came to domestic matters like marriage and divorce. And
then it came to pass that the English Reformation left this specific
area of the doctrine mostly
untouched, so the Tudors would have had similar ideas surrounding the
question of consent and marriage as did their late medieval forbears.

This theological point is not only the whole raison d’etre for the most central plot device in the play, but also adds an extra note of pathos to Juliet’s situation and an extra layer of moral judgment towards Lord Capulet’s behavior.
If she did not insist on keeping her marriage vow, or if she married
Paris knowing full well that she had already been married, both of those
would be mortal sins
for which she would risk damnation. And by extension, because he used
duress against Juliet to try to make her comply with his sinful wish,
Lord Capulet
has also damned himself (albeit unknowingly, but even so, the narrative
clearly presents forcing his daughter’s marriage as something he should
know better than to do, anyway).

Until this point, Juliet’s marriage is characterized as an impulsive decision such as only foolish youth could make, but ironically, in that confrontation with Lord Capulet, this slip of a young girl is now portrayed as conducting herself with far more spiritual maturity and grace than any of the adults around her. Her parents are failing in their duty towards her by putting their dynastic concerns ahead of her health and happiness (when it’s been made clear they already know this is a Bad Idea), and her Nurse, who actually knows about the secret marriage and all the reasons why it cannot be taken back, is actively pleading with her to just forget it and pretend Romeo never was. Juliet’s choice here is monumental, because it involves not only disregarding her parents, but also an active decision to completely break with the woman who has been with her for literally everything in her life up to that point, a break so thorough that even Nurse herself doesn’t know that it’s happened. This dramatic turning point is a bittersweet portrait of the girl losing her innocence and growing up into an adult, from one angle, and from another angle it’s a paean to the pure-hearted idealism (different from the limpid innocence of childhood in that it’s willful and risk-taking, and fiery in quality) that can only be found in the young. Either way, it does Juliet’s character AND Shakespeare’s dramatic talents a massive disservice to portray her situation as something so simplistic or reactionary as lovelorn pining after an absent boyfriend, or rebelling against her parents, or “staying true to her own heart”.

This wasn’t just a plot device for the stage: many real-life lovers leaned on this feature of the Church’s teachings, when faced with the opposition of their families and communities, and in many cases, the Church was indeed forced to side with the couple, however reluctantly. Margery Paston, the daughter of a genteel landowning family
in the 15th century, and Richard Calle, the Paston family’s longtime housekeeper, were one such case of a real-life Romeo and Juliet: they mutually fell in love, and married in secret when they came up against heavy opposition from Margery’s family. The Pastons responded by separating them, firing Calle from his job and having him sent to London, while Margery remained in Norfolk under house arrest. There, she seems to have been subjected to ongoing and intense pressure to walk back her marriage… if the couple had been married formally in church, this would not have been possible, but secret marriages were vulnerable to challenges like this because they were secret. A witness would have helped her and Calle’s case and made it more airtight, but even if the couple had had any, apparently the Pastons had succeeded in intimidating them into silence.

But even though the Pastons seemed to be winning, it’s hard to believe that bystanders wouldn’t have objected to at least some of what the Pastons were doing to try and get their way. Otherwise, Calle could not have written Margery in 1469, during their separation, saying
“I suppose if you tell them sadly the truth, they will not damn their
souls for us”. Their situation was objectively quite bleak. 
For the months they were apart, it was made very clear to both Margery
and Calle that, if the
couple continued to insist on their marriage, the Pastons would disown Margery and throw her out of the house, therefore leaving her with few options for survival, let alone to find her way to Calle over a distance of a hundred miles.

He mournfully acknowledges that their gamble might fail, and their worst fears might come true, but there is also defiance in his resignation, as he concludes, “if they will in no wise agree [to respect our marriage],
between God, the Devil and them be it.”

Margery, for her part, was no less determined. When Margery was finally brought before the local bishop, he turned out to be sympathetic towards the Paston family, and gave Margery a long speech about the importance of pleasing her family and community (so much for the theological importance of consent, but then, clerical hypocrisy was nothing new to medieval people). But Margery remained steadfast (in fact, I am inclined to think from her next words that the bishop’s words only goaded her to greater resolve) and when she spoke, she not only continued to insist that she had said what she had said, but according to her mother she “boldly” added, “if those words made it not sure […] she would make it surer before she went thence, for she said she thought in her conscience she was bound [in marriage to Calle], whatsoever the words were.” Her wording left absolutely no room for doubt in the mind of even the most flexible theologian. And when Calle was cross-examined and his testimony found to match that of Margery’s, the bishop of Norfolk had no choice but to rule in the couple’s favor.

Margery’s mother did indeed make good on her word: she did both disown Margery and throw her out of the house. She seemed to have done it more to save face, however, than to actually punish her daughter, since she does seem to have made arrangements behind the scenes for Margery to stay with sympathetic neighbors. In the end, Calle was right, the Pastons were not willing to risk their own souls. Margery and Richard Calle got their happy ending, and had at least three children (and we know about them because we know Margery’s mother left them money in her own will).

*
This also meant that Edmund Tudor actually would have been Margaret Beaufort’s first
husband, not her second. It was true that she had already been “in a
marriage” before being married later to Tudor, but strictly speaking, it
was only a precontract (what we today would think of as an engagement)
with signficance limited to the secular realm; there are a lot of
reasons this would not have really been considered a marriage at the
time, but the most theologically pertinent one is that the bride’s
consent could not have been involved, because she was too young to be
able to give it. Consequently, this paper marriage was easily
dissolved as soon as her guardians thought it more politically expedient
to marry her to Edmund Tudor.

And for all intents and purposes, Margaret Beaufort herself considered
Tudor to be her first husband, not John de la Pole.

tl;dr: the study of Shakespeare cannot be separated from historical and societal understanding of the times he lived in, and frankly, it’s a terrible shame that English classes don’t emphasize this more, because then you’re throwing out about 80% of the meaning his works actually hold.

Sorry to keep reblogging this long post but holy shit this is an excellent addition. Thank you for taking the time to write all that up.

Relevantly, throughout the medieval period and to my knowledge the Renaissance, it was widely believed that both parties had to be sexually satisfied in order for a woman to get pregnant. Obviously this idea has some, uh, let’s say less pleasant ramifications, but it adds another dimension to the importance of a girl consenting to her marriage and being married to a suitable and compatible partner. 

elodieunderglass:

skeleton-richard:

shredsandpatches:

skeleton-richard:

shredsandpatches:

skeleton-richard:

elodieunderglass:

turtlegiles:

elodieunderglass:

armyoflarkness:

gaysun:

gaysun:

Winnie the Pooh is a fat icon tbh

reminder that Winnie the Pooh wore a crop top and ate his fave food and loved himself and u can too

His friends were a pig with anxiety, a donkey with chronic depression, a single mom kangaroo and her kid, a bossy obsessive control-freak rabbit, a tiger with ADHD, and a pompous but dyslexic owl, and he loves them and they love him. 

if it interests you, Pooh (whose formal name is Edward Bear) made his first appearance in a poem written in 1924, before A.A. Milne wrote the books. It’s rather sweet – a bouncy little kid’s poem that touches on the importance of representation, societal expectations vs. self confidence, changing fashions (!) and using positive role models. It’s about a teddy bear who worries about whether his body shape is okay, until he meets a handsome king who is fat. The bear decides that he is happy with his body.

https://www.familyfriendpoems.com/poem/teddy-bear-by-aa-milne

You can’t just offhandedly say that Pooh’s real name is Edward Bear

forbidden Pooh lore

Edward Bear is the bear’s formal name – Teddy Bear is his nickname, since Teddy can be short for Edward. Christopher Robin then gave him a second name. He is called Pooh after a swan*, Winnie after an actual historical bear, and “ther” to apparently make it masculine.

Introduction to Winnie-the-Pooh (1926):

If you happen to have read another book about Christopher Robin, you may remember that he once had a swan (or the swan had Christopher Robin, I don’t know which), and that he used to call this swan Pooh. That was a long time ago, and when we said good-bye, we took the name with us, as we didn’t think the swan would want it any more. Well, when Edward Bear said that he would like an exciting name all to himself, Christopher Robin said at once, without stopping to think, that he was Winnie-the-Pooh. And he was. So, as I have explained the Pooh part, I will now explain the rest of it…

image

“Winnie” comes from the historical bear, above. She was an orphaned female bear from Canada who was brought to England by a Canadian soldier who arrived to fight in World War 1. He named her “Winnipeg” after his home province. Winnipeg moved to the London Zoo, where she was famous and beloved, and Christopher Robin admired her very much as a boy.

Then you put it together, in Chapter 1:

Here is Edward Bear, coming downstairs now, bump, bump, bump, on the back of his head, behind  Christopher Robin. It is, as far as he knows, the only
way of coming downstairs, but sometimes he feels that there really is another way, if only he could stop bumping for a moment and think of it. And then he feels that perhaps there isn’t. Anyhow, here he is at the bottom,
and ready to be introduced to you. Winnie-the-Pooh. 

When I first heard his name, I said, just as you are going to say, ‘But I thought he was a boy?’

 ‘So did I,” said Christopher Robin.

 ‘Then you can’t call him Winnie?’

 ‘I don’t.’

‘But you said – ’

“He’s Winnie-ther-Pooh. Don’t you know what “ther” means?” 

“Ah, yes, now I do,’ I said quickly; and I hope you do too, because it is all the explanation you are going to get. 

don’t you know what “ther” means

and that is why Edward Bear is called Winnie-the-Pooh. And people just don’t question it. It’s just accepted.


* As explained in “When We Were Very Young” :  “Christopher Robin, who feeds this swan in the mornings, has given him the name of ‘Pooh.’ This is a very fine name for a swan, because, if you call him and he doesn’t come (which is a thing swans are good at), then you can pretend that you were just saying ‘Pooh!’ to show him how little you wanted him.””

One small comment: “Teddy” bear doesn’t come from Pooh’s original name, but from Theodore Roosevelt. Other than that this is amazing.

I think the implication is that Edward Bear got his name by back formation, not that Pooh is the source of the name – that is, “Edward Bear” is Edward because it’s a nickname for Teddy.

Hm, interesting. I’d have to do some research to be sure but I don’t think so? At least from what I know of Pooh’s lore and backstory, the original name of the bear is Edward Bear, then the names of the swan and the bear formed the more familiar name. Interesting thought on the back formation!

No, you’re right, I just don’t think the comments were suggesting that the name “Teddy bear” is derived from “Edward Bear” rather than from Teddy Roosevelt, but that “Edward” makes sense as a name for a bear because it’s a more formal version of Teddy (even though teddy bears are named for a Theodore rather than an Edward). And then he got all his other names as you say 🙂

Looking back at the particular comment I was referring to, the way they said “Edward Bear is the bear’s formal name – Teddy Bear is his nickname, since Teddy can be short for Edward” sounds as if they’re saying this particular bear was at some point called Teddy, which he never was. That’s where the confusion is from!

(If you told four-year-old me that 20 years later there’d be serious discussions on the origins of Pooh’s name… I’d be pretty happy actually.)

@skeleton-richard I reccomend you guys reading the poem “Teddy Bear,” which I posted upthread and set this off! You’ll probably enjoy it, it is sweet.

This poem is about the eponymous Teddy, “Teddy Bear”, and the bear is referred to interchangeably as Teddy and Mr. Edward Bear. This is absolutely, comprehensively, down in the history books, Christopher Robin would tell you himself, the actual same physical literal teddy bear as Pooh.

The Milne family was British, and the British were less interested in Theodore Roosevelt; they had plenty of Teddy bears by the 1920s, but they weren’t in the Bull Moose fandom, so they had no particular reason to insist on their Teddies all being inherently Theodores. So as a clear back-formation from “Teddy”, Milne named the bear Edward. The bear was both Edward and Teddy when the poem was written in 1924.

Christopher Robin, being a child, then assigned a more childish name when he became verbal and imaginative. By 1926, Mr Edward Bear was in the literature as Winnie-the-Pooh.

And he’s a fat icon! pass it on!

please. tell us more about your ‘folk bangers’ playlist. that sounds relevant to all of my interests. (folks and banging)

nothingbutthedreams:

arcadiaego:

ryanthedemiboy:

ventureonwilderseas:

axonsandsynapses:

auber-jean:

lotstradamus:

if you want a playlist for banging folks this probably isn’t the one for you, but if you want to Go Off, Historically then WHAT’S UP 

🤘🏻

@axonsandsynapses

a) This is terrific

b) Have some more! (Most of these are traditional, a few of them are more contemporary)

c) I’ve put them all in an actual YouTube playlist, here, for your listening convenience

Oh, hey! My favorite genre! I hope you all like shanties and Irish:

English (but not shanties):
Hills of Connemara – Gaelic Storm
Shady Grove – Crooked Still (a good band for this sort of thing)
The Elfin Knight – Kate Rusby

Shanties/shanty-style sea songs:
Ring Down Below – Storm Weather Shanty Choir
South Australia – The Kilkennys
Barrett’s Privateers – The Real McKenzies (modern but you’d be hard-pressed to tell)
Blood Red Roses – Storm Weather Shanty Choir
10,000 Miles Away – The Seadogs

Irish:
Dúlamán – Anuna
Nil Na La – Solas
Óró Sé do Bheatha Bhaile – Seo Linn
Si Do Mhaimeo I – Méav Ní Mhaolchatha and Mairead Nesbitt

Instrumental:
The Landlord’s Walk – Blair Douglas
Gravel Walk – The Rogues (WOW what a jam!)
O’Sullivan’s March – (Linked is The Chieftains’ version, here’s the Boston Pops version I grew up on)

Bonus Macedonian song: Sto Mi et Milo – Kitka (a great group if you’re interested in Eastern European music)

Thank you for this post. This is amazing.

It also helped me find the video for the herding call that brought all the cows to the singer. Link here.

Bellowhead do a version of The Parson’s Farewell that goes even harder than Bear’s, if that’s possible. (It is possible because Bellowhead.)

I’m glad that someone mentioned Bellowhead’s version of The Parson’s Farewell because honestly when I first watched Black Sails and heard that version I thought ‘well it’s good but it’s not as good as Bellowhead’.

I could easily disappear down a Youtube hole and never return with this subject but here’s some of mine:

Lady of the Woods – Jamie Smith’s Mabon (because this list needed more welsh folk music. Also this is a serious earworm, just to warn you now)

The Ballad of George Collins – Sam Lee (which has a delightfully weird video)

Slaves – Faustus

Cobblers Hornpipe – Eliza Carthy and the Wayward Band (I always love watching Eliza play and the way her and Saul Rose play off each other is really fun to watch)

Fair Margaret and Sweet William – Jim Moray

Marching Through the Green Grass – Lucy Ward

Child Owlet – Kathryn Roberts and Sean Lakeman (with bonus bloodthirsty video made by their daughters)

Skewball – False Lights

The Lass of Glenshee – Cara Dillon

Cold Haily Rainy Night – The Imagined Village

Silbury Hill – Phillip Henry and Hannah Martin (now known as Edgelarks)

Gentleman Jack – O’Hooley & Tidow (because the world needs more songs about Anne Lister and I love them)

Lady of the Rose/High Street Rose – Seth Lakeman (two for the price of one here as it’s a live video and he used to do this as an encore which almost killed me)

All of Bellowhead’s instrumentals are also brilliant but particularly Frog’s Legs and Dragon’s Teeth, which I exhausted myself a few times trying to dance to at gigs.

star-anise:

hamartiacosm:

deanplease:

magpiescholar:

gothiccharmschool:

prismatic-bell:

marzipanandminutiae:

it’s hilarious to me when people call historical fashions that men hated oppressive

like in BuzzFeed’s Women Wear Hoop Skirts For A Day While Being Exaggeratedly Bad At Doing Everything In Them video, one woman comments that she’s being “oppressed by the patriarchy.” if you’ve read anything Victorian man ever said about hoop skirts, you know that’s pretty much the exact opposite of the truth

thing is, hoop skirts evolved as liberating garment for women. before them, to achieve roughly conical skirt fullness, they had to wear many layers of petticoats (some stiffened with horsehair braid or other kinds of cord). the cage crinoline made their outfits instantly lighter and easier to move in

it also enabled skirts to get waaaaay bigger. and, as you see in the late 1860s, 1870s, and mid-late 1880s, to take on even less natural shapes. we jokingly call bustles fake butts, but trust me- nobody saw them that way. it was just skirts doing weird, exciting Skirt Things that women had tons of fun with

men, obviously, loathed the whole affair

(1864)

(1850s. gods, if only crinolines were huge enough to keep men from getting too close)

(no date given, but also, this is 100% impossible)

(also undated, but the ruffles make me think 1850s)

it was also something that women of all social classes- maids and society ladies, enslaved women and free women of color -all wore at one point or another. interesting bit of unexpected equalization there

and when bustles came in, guess what? men hated those, too

(1880s)

(probably also 1880s? the ladies are being compared to beetles and snails. in case that was unclear)

(1870s, I think? the bustle itself looks early 1870s but the tight fit of the actual gown looks later)

hoops and bustles weren’t tools of the patriarchy. they were items 1 and 2 on the 19th century’s “Fashion Trends Women Love That Men Hate” lists, with bonus built-in personal space enforcement

Gonna add something as someone who’s worn a lot of period stuff for theatre:

The reason you suck at doing things in a hoop skirt is because you’re not used to doing things in a hoop skirt.


The first time I got in a Colonial-aristocracy dress I felt like I couldn’t breathe. The construction didn’t actually allow me to raise my arms all the way over my head (yes, that’s period-accurate). We had one dresser to every two women, because the only things we could put on ourselves were our tights, shifts, and first crinoline. Someone else had to lace our corsets, slip on our extra crinolines, hold our arms to balance us while a second person actually put the dresses on us like we were dolls, and do up our shoes–which we could not put on ourselves because we needed to be able to balance when the dress went on. My entire costume was almost 40 pounds (I should mention here that many of the dresses were made entirely of upholstery fabric), and I actually did not have the biggest dress in the show.

We wore our costumes for two weeks of rehearsal, which is quite a lot in university theatre. The first night we were all in dress, most of the ladies went propless because we were holding up our skirts to try and get a feel for both balance and where our feet were in comparison to where it looked like they should be. I actually fell off the stage.

By opening night? We were square-dancing in the damn things. We had one scene where our leading man needed to whistle, but he didn’t know how and I was the only one in the cast loud enough to be heard whistling from under the stage, so I was also commando-crawling underneath him at full speed trying to match his stage position–while still in the dress. And petticoats. And corset. Someone took my shoes off for that scene so I could use my toes to propel myself and I laid on a sheet so I wouldn’t get the dress dirty, but that was it–I was going full Solid Snake in a space about 18″ high, wearing a dress that covered me from collarbones to floor and weighed as much as a five-year-old child. And it worked beautifully.

These women knew how to wear these clothes. It’s a lot less “restrictive” when it’s old hat.

I have worn hoop skirts a lot, especially in summer. I still wear hoop skirts if I’m going to be at an event where I will probably be under stage lights. (For example, Vampire Ball.)

I can ride public transportation while wearing them. I can take a taxi while wearing them. I can go on rides at Disneyland while wearing them. Because I’ve practiced wearing them and twisting the rigid-but-flexible skirt bones so I can sit on them and not buffet other people with my skirts. 

Hoop skirts are awesome.

Hoop skirts are also air conditioning.  If you ever go to reenactments in the South, particularly in summer, you’ll notice a lot of ladies gently swaying in their big 1860s skirts – because it fans all the sweaty bits.  You’ll be much cooler in a polished cotton gown with full sleeves, ruffles, and hoopskirt than in a riding jacket and trousers, let me promise you!  (This is part of the reason many enslaved women also enthusiastically preferred larger skirts – they had more to do than sit in the shade, but they’d get a bit of a breeze from the hoops’ movement as they were walking.)  

They’re also – and I can’t emphasize enough how important this is – really easy to pee in.  If you’re in split-crotch drawers (which, until at least the 1890s, you were), you can take an easy promenade a few feet away from the gents and then squat down and pee in pretty much total privacy.  It gives so much freedom in travel when it’s not a problem to pee most anywhere.

People also don’t realize that corsets themselves were a HUGE HUGE IMPROVEMENT over previous support-garment styles – and if you have large breasts that don’t naturally float freely above your ribcage (which some people’s do! but it’s not that common), corsets are often an improvement over modern bras.

They hold up the breasts from underneath, taking the weight of them off your back.  Most historical corset styles don’t have shoulder straps, so you’re not bearing the weight of your breast there, either, and you can raise your arms as far as your dress’s shoulder line allows (which is the actually restrictive bit – in my 1830s dress, literally all I can do is work in my lap, but in my 1890s dress I can paddle a kayak or draw a longbow with no trouble.  Both in a full corset).  They support your back and reduce the physical effort it takes to not slouch, helping avoid back pain.  They’re rigid enough that you don’t usually have to adjust your clothing to keep it where it belongs.  They’re flexible – if you’re having a bloaty PMS day you just … don’t lace it as tightly, and if your back muscles are sore you can lace it a little tighter.  And you can undo a cup (or, y’know, not have breast cups) to nurse a baby without losing any of the structural integrity of the garment.

I do educational/historical dressing and people are really insistent, like, “The corset was invented by a man, wasn’t it?”  “Actually, women were at the forefront of changing undergarment styles throughout the 19th century!” “But it’s true that it was invented by a man.”  

Uh, well, it’s hard to say who “invented” the style but it’s very likely that women’s dressmakers mostly innovated women’s corsets and men’s tailors mostly innovated men’s corsets, honey.  Because those exist too.

Everything about all of this is accurate.

@star-anise

Yeees.

Also? These fashions are about taking up space. They’re about being loud and visible and saying HERE I AM. About saying “I’m so rich, I need someone to help me dress every morning.” And about saying, “I am not solely here for male consumption”–there’s a reason so many cartoons lampooning women’s fashion are about how hard those ladies are to kiss, and how impossible it’d be to have a quick fuck in them. (Which it actually isn’t, but that’s beside the point)

Historical women’s fashions aren’t 100% unproblematic and absolutely wonderful. They make stark class distinctions incredibly visible, because you simply cannot wear some of these dresses and keep them maintained without a private staff to do a ton of work for you. They upheld a standard of femininity a lot of women were excluded from. They limited women’s and girls’ participation in sports and athletics. 

But damn, women wore them for a reason.

elodieunderglass:

staxilicious:

systlin:

theleeallure:

hypno-sandwich:

danipup:

striderofthenorth-dom:

danipup:

striderofthenorth-dom:

striderofthenorth-dom:

mrmattegrey:

danipup:

striderofthenorth-dom:

synonymforhappiness:

striderofthenorth-dom:

sighinastorm:

chiribomb:

striderofthenorth-dom:

I’ve been working on a wooden longbow most of the afternoon.  Here are ten easy steps for making your own 🙂

1. Cut down a tree

2.Split that tree into lengthwise sections called staves. The dog will help

3. Build a woodshed

4. Let those staves dry for a few years in the shed

5. Remove all the shit that isn’t a bow. The dog will help again by lying on your foot

6. Make sure the handle stays centered in the growth rings

7. Steam bend and weight the wood so that both limbs start with the same bend

8. Slowly remove wood from the belly of the bow on both sides until they bend evenly

9. Add tip overlays, handle wraps, and all the fancy crap

10. Go out in the yard and practice till hunting season starts

I may need to drive to town for some human contact.

😮

Any particular wood?  What was it here?  I always meant to try making a bow out of my parents’ overgrown yew shrubbery, but that didn’t work out.

Pictured in the compilation above are shagbark hickory, hop-hornbeam, and common buckthorn. While English yew is rightfully considered one of the best bow woods, almost any straight grained hardwood can make a very nice bow. You can even use maple boards from the hardware store to start.

“Shagbark Hickory,” “Hop-Hornbeam,” and “Common Buckthorn,” all sound like the names middle earth kids give their high school garage bands.

😂😂😂… and now my brain just created Ent Metal as a genre. It’s pretty damn Larghissimo, but very strong.

what a fuckin’ nerd.

Okay now I want to figure out what ent metal would sound like.

I’m thinking thunder and whale song. Somehow.

The amount of notes this has gotten is absurd. That doesn’t happen to my posts, but since you crazy kids seem interested here’s (one of a gajillion ways) to make the accompanying primitive arrows.

We want lighter wood than we used to make the bows. This is white cedar- nice and light and sproingy.

Mill that up into rectangular pieces as long as your arrows need to be.

Then you use this homemade tool called a shooting board to rest them in while you hand plane them from rectangular to round.

You saved your wings from the spring turkey hunt, right? Good, we’re gonna need those primary feathers.

Make yourself a pattern out brass or copper sheet, clamp the feather to it, and burn it with a torch. This will shape the feathers into fletchings.

Now we need to make pine pitch glue by melting together pine pitch (you can pick it off pine trees where they’ve been injured) and hardwood charcoal. Think of it as ancient people’s super glue.

Get your paleontologist buddy to give you some rock from actual Paleolithic quarry sites ‘cuz that’s pretty rad.

Learn flint knapping… he said casually after years of hair-pulling-out struggles with it.

Attach your stone points to your arrow shafts using the ancient super glue stuff and leg sinew from the deer you got last year. Do the same for the fletchings.

And you’re finally ready to start practicing! Don’t worry, the dog will help again by standing directly in front of the target because she’s beautiful and loving, but not very good at critical thinking sometimes.

mansies, this post keeps getting more awesome. 🙂

also, proposal: should Caradhras have a different name in summertime? i’m feelin’ a more Bag End or Hobbiton vibe when the place isn’t covered in show.

You can’t go changing place names seasonally, @danipup What would the maps look like? Every place has 4 names?😂😂

I’m living in 3018 map ideas, @striderofthenorth-dom . get with the program, Bow Boy. 💡

From up the thread- I’m glad all these Old Romantics are into Ent Music.

@systlin this seems like it would be right up your.. archery lane?

Holy shit

You can also do a bath and bend version where you use straight pieces of wood instead of carving them, soak the wood in salted water, set to dry using clamps to shape it; repeat the bath soak then clamp set (moving the clamps for each new set) until your bow is in the preferred shape.

(This is how my uncle taught me to make long bows in his workshop at Howitzer when I was a child. They made a lot of fiberglass bows, which I was too young to be around the manufacturing of, and mostly made compound bows (the ones with pulleys that give more tension to the pull). My uncle designed the Warthog bow for himself and other short people who like to now hunt. OP has a couple of clever life hacks to my uncle’s method (using lifting weights is a genius idea), and an excellent bow making method. I am only sharing a different technique for those who may find soaking easier than steaming (or those who find themselves needing to make a bow in the wild since you could bind the wood around a tree instead of clamping it to shape).

this is such a nice post